Spooner Row Message Board

As ever planning is never straightforward

As the application has been refused and appealed it will be up to the Planning inspectorate how this proceeds. If there is a hearing called , this happens less and less nowadays, then it is South Norfolk who have to defend their decision as to why they did so . If it goes to a hearing we will be invited to comment further but usually what has already been said, does not need to be said again. previous comments remain 'live'

The norm is for a desktop review which sometimes results in the inspector visiting but please be reassured 95%+  are dismissed simply by consideration of the paperwork.

If the applicant decides to ignore permissions granted or not and if the appeal is dismissed then planning enforcement will require any works etc to be removed

I have had a quick drive past and am not sure there is much visible going on but I am happy to flag this up to the enforcement team , as a district councillor but I do need details please.

Wearing my Spooner row Wattlefield and Suton Hat the council can always consider this matter again and you are more than welcome to come to the next meeting where if you wish it will be discussed but please let us know at least a week beforehand, so it can go in the agenda. Such re consideration would be limited however to evidence of what is happening which we could then pass onto the planning enforcement team. 

I hope this helps

Hi all,

Thanks for the reply.

More fencing has been added over the last week with a running commentary provided by the residents in the immediate facility. This is very unsettling for the community as a whole as planning permission was refused but development of the site has been allowed to continue.

The residents have contacted the council about this and apparantly someone was sent over, but the council, despite knowing about it, have done nothing to halt the continued work on the site.

We have zero trust or faith in SNDC over this, and only need reassurances from our parish council that we are being treated fairly, and more importantly equally, in all aspects of this issue.

We can't afford to have high priced lawyers at our beck and call advising us how to proceed with this issue which us why we are relying on our duly elected officials to speak for us and to make sure our voices are heard, because they seem to be very hard if hearing in Long Stratton.

Unfortunately this evening, a number of caravans have illegally moved onto the field in Suton

Can the parish council PLEASE step in on our behalf?

looks like about 10 structures

Hi, as expected, travellers have now illegally occpied and started the development of the site on London Road. Funnily enough on a friday evening when the council will not act.

This is not a suprise. With work being started and reported last week (and completely ignored) this was their obvious next step ahead of their appeal.

The residents of Suton are now becoming a minority in our village and outnumbered by travellers on 2 sites. And who cares about this? Noone. 

Why are they allowed to flout the law in this manner? 

With a fatal crash a 100 meters away from the site this week, and the planning permission refused because of this, the increase of traffic using this site in the middle of the longest and straightest stretch is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

But i suppose that our council do not care as its far enough away from them and their lives not to have an impact. 

What can our parish council do? 

This happened last night and I was advised at 2230

I have been to  the site and will be advising the Planning enforcement team as soon as possible but am unaware of wheher there is any mechanism to respond at the weekend

Move  was done on a friday evening obviously quite deliberately

Police are aware as ground vehicles blocking the road as they turn in

I can understand everyone's frustration here but the Parish council have no powers to act other than inform the Planners and the land owner. If the land owner is complicit with this, it makes life very difficult and the likelihood of immediate action very remote.

I have e mailed the planners enforcement team with photos this morning

If persons decide to act against the Law in an anarchic way, civil law remedies are at best weak and very expensive.

I am very sorry this is happening - bully boy tactics as usual.    I do hope there is some redress here.

I think they are the landowners? Maybe I'm wrong? Why isn't there a planners enforcement team on standby at weekends and evenings to stop this type of illegal activity? No doubt the site will expand. It should be returned to a greenfield site at the landowner's expense.

Let me tell you from the perspective of a landowner who has no planning how this will go,

1. council tries to persuade you to submit an application, this will continue for months/years 

2. if you finally decide to submit one, that application can take another year or so

3. lets assume it gets refused, they will then appeal, this can take another 6-9 months

4. lets now assume this all gets refused, the council will then speak to the land owner over the next few months and ask them to clear the land

5. after many months they will serve an enforcement notice

6. if after many more months they still haven’t cleared the land they will have to take them to court, this is a big decision as it costs the council circa 20k and they need to justify this cost at the expense of the tax payer.

7. if they decide to do this, the land owner can ignore showing up as they are probably going to loose so whats the point.

8. it’s only after all this they either restore the land or face prison, if they leave the site then the council has to restore the land, in a lot of cases this doesn’t happen as they have no money.

As you can see this whole process can go on for years or infinity if the council choose it’s not going to do anything.

After reading this your realise the planning system is completely broken, ask the people who live in front of RJM Commercials who spent a fortune fighting that, won, yet the council did nothing, same with Newalls, the list goes on.

Read this article about a site NCC enforced, drive there and your see it’s still the same today, it’s gone on for years.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/waste-operator-jailed-for-running-illegal-site-1-4460932

And to add to this, as the council doesn’t have the funds to return the land to its former use, it stays dormant, after 10yrs it becomes lawful and you then can’t do a thing.

Complete joke, my advice to people on here wanting to build a annex in their back garden, just go ahead the council won’t do a thing.

I think you could be wrong there as the council clamps down hard on homeowners if they try to erect a single property on their land or extend without permission. We are not governed by the same laws. 

This e mail received this am from Phil courtier Director of Place at South Norfolk and Broadland

I am aware that there has been unauthorised activity at Suton over the last 24hrs and that a number of caravans and other vehicles have been moved onto the site. I am also aware that in summer 2019 planning permission was refused for a traveller site on this land.

I have spoken to Cllr Lisa Neal and the Assistant Director for the Regulatory service, Nick Howard, and I have advised that the first 2 or 3 days will often be very changeable and we need to make a full assessment of the situation at the start of next week once things have settled down. This assessment will include the number of vehicles and caravans, the people occupying the site and their status and/or needs. This assessment will then inform the Council’s response to this site. If there is criminal activity in the meantime or if vehicles block the road, etc then this is a police matter and the police should be contacted accordingly.

I appreciate that this is a concerning and frustrating time for the local community but I can assure you that officers from both planning enforcement and the community protection team will be involved in this case at the start of Monday morning. I will also ask to be kept informed of progress during the day and in the following days.

Feel free to let me know if anything changes significantly in the next day.

Regards

Phil

As much as I feel for anyone near this, it will go on for ages.

Even if they stick an enforcement notice on there, that can be appealed 9months, then it can go to High Court yr+ then they can just simply ignore the result, then who is paying for the land to be returned ?

i am watching this as a true indictor of the failure of planning in this country.

I can confirm South Norfolk Enforcement team were on site this am ( Monday 10th) and we have been advised that an announcement /decision will be made either later today or early tommorrow on the next course of action.

I will advise you all when I hear

To be clear here the Council's viewpoint on this action is one which is very much opposed to what has happened, and from my district councillor's hat perspective, I am very much against the action taken by the travellers on this site which is just ignoring the law.

I will be doing all I can to ensure swift remedial action is taken and I am sure that is also the view of the Community Council. 

shut the stable door after the horse has bolted, 

What is the point of a temp stop notice preventing more caravans AFTER they are all on the site. All the hardcore is down and they were casually raking it this morning. Sheds going up too. Why can't the council serve notice to leave until after an appeal? Surely something can be done. If it was a bunch of white middle class business men the rules would be different.

There is a meeting to discuss the matters you and others have raised  tommorrow with the Director of place. I will be attending wearing various hats but this is not a public meeting although I will communicate its findings with you as soon as possible

The office of the Deputy PM has issued some guidance on Temporary stop notices ODPM circular 02/2005 which at my first reading are very powerful in addressing this situation and I am very grateful to Mr Davis for pushing for this meeting to take place.

Can I please suggest that people read this before implying that more could and should have been done

The service of the stop notice would not have taken place if they did not think that an illegal act had taken place

The council have to act within the guidelines of the Law otherwise any action they do take could be compromised. In my experience the Traveller community are very well advised when it comes to legal matters.

I share all your frustration here and believe me when I say we are doing all we can legally to address this situation

The guidance on Temporary stop notices ODPM circular 02/2005 which Julian has referred to has been now been replaced by the National Planning Policy Framework published on 27 March 2012 and revised on 24 July 2018. It sets out the government’s planning policies for England and how these are expected to be applied. The following link within the framework document covers enforcement: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ensuring-effective-enforcement#Stop-Notice

I have lifted the following paragraph from the document, which is the reason it is important to collect any evidence of the temporary stop notice being breached. Noting that there is no limit on any fine, it also indicates the seriousness of the offence.

What are the penalties for contravention of a temporary stop notice?

It is an offence to contravene a temporary stop notice, and a local planning authority should always consider prosecution as soon they have evidence of an offence (section 171G of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990).

A person guilty of an offence is liable on conviction to an unlimited fine.

So how would you differentiate between the illegal works that were undertaken on the site AFTER the Temporary Stop Notice was issued on Wednesday in order to gain evidence, to what was undertaken over the weekend before? Is not setting up a campsite over the weekend without planning permission also illegal?? Last Friday morning on 7 February the site was green grass, now its covered in hardcore and caravans.

Is it fair and cost-effective that councils have to put right this type of difficult and illegal planning problem at our expense? The Government should take a good hard look to make the system fairer for everyone in the community and not just for a select few. What is the MP doing to redress the broken planning system when things get ignored?

Where's the sewage and household rubbish generated from the site going to go?

I hope they will be charged council tax like the rest of us for the waste collection service

Who likes the new building that has appeared?

So has planning been passed?

I have asked the compliance officer to investigate this and let me know.

a reply from the housing lead at South Norflk is respons to a question as to what help the travellers are getting

' Hello Cllr

The Council has initiated procedures regarding Travellers in accordance with Government Guidance on Coronavirus and reduce the spread of the desease

The preference to move travellers on has been dramatically reduced, in addition water supplies and portalloos have been provided. The reasoning being to reduce movement and promote isolation.

Discussions with partners have taken place including the County liaison team and the Police regarding each individual encampment and procedures to conform to Government Guidance.

The Councils Temporary Stopping Place has been used and additional facilities provided.

If you require further information do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards

Kevin Philcox

Whilst this generic reply is clearly in relation to travellers who move on quite quickly can you clarify the position please in respect to the Suton site which as you are probably aware in currently the subject of an enforcement notice

1. Have portaloos been provided at the site please?

2. If not what arrangements have they in place for the hygienic disposal of sewage?

3. What is the position regarding water supply ? have this been provided or as has been suggested illegally sourced ?

4. What arrangements are currently in place regarding their refuse disposal and collection

I assume as is the norm they are not paying any precept for any of these services, much to the annoyance and chagrin of local residents who feel that the current situation is TOTALLY biased towards the Travellers who are in breach of Planning Law and have appealed the notice, yet continue to dig in at the site, no doubt trying to convince the Planning inspectorate that butter would not melt in their mouths, whilst constantly pushing the envelope.

I have copied in Petra, Andy and Phil and understand that the Law in incredibly shambolic in this area and whilst we are doing and have done all we can, as we wait for the Planning Inspectorate to get off their backsides, the residents , the voting and precept paying legally compliant electorate, understandably are getting very agitated at this constant on going breach of Planning Law and disregard for the DCLG guidance in respect of ANOTHER Traveller site in Suton

The recent addition of a concreted in fence line at the front gate has brought this matter to the fore, and the suggestion that yet another unit has been added to the site in breach of the notice , is now impossible to verify and know/understand what else is going on on-site, which might be in breach. Visits shall we say for local residents are a complete no-no.

At the very least , from whoever, can I have an update on the current situation in writing please so I can pass it onto the residents and the community council and include a clarification in respect to the 4 questions above

Yours sincerely

Councillor Julian Halls ( South Norfolk ) Wymondham South ward

A full reply is awaited but I diud geta response form the compliance officer See below

From: Andy Baines [mailto:ABaines@S-NORFOLK.GOV.UK]

Sent: 12 June 2020 11:34

To: julian.halls@talktalk.net

Cc: Petra Maryon

Subject: London Road, Suton

Dear Julian,

Following our recent telephone call I had a drive past the site and spoke with one of the occupants on the telephone.

I saw no evidence of any brick construction and this was confirmed by the occupant. As you are aware trenches have been dug to install water pipes and fencing has been erected. This may be where the assumption that a brick construction is being built came from. The erection of fencing and installation of the water pipes do not require planning permission or breach the Notices.

I can advise you that some caravans have been removed from the site and some new caravans have been brought on. Provided the total number of caravans (this includes mobile homes/static caravans) does not exceed 12 there is no breach of the Stop Notice.

Kind regards,

On a village road in Essex, similar layout to London Road Suton, there was a  travellers site set up. more or less the same as one on old A11 Suton. Same size, same fence etc.

They had roughly 20 caravans on site.

They were living on site for about 18 months . First there was fence went up. Then large Field shelter. Then several lama animals.

After 3-4 months caravans started turning up, 1 by 1, over next few months. They had council bins. post man etc. They were living on site for 6-8 months, 

Most left the site Christmas time. A few stayed until Feb.They have not returned and all Caravans, animals etc have gone. All thats left is the Fencing and large double gates.

I spoke to several local people and they said Chelmsford council had evicted them as its Green Belt Land? Im sure it was more complicated than that.

Personally im not against the travellers site in Suton. I think its in a good place and i have sympathy for them.  

What i am saying is that from what i can see Norfolk council are spineless. and Essex take no prisoners.  

As discussed previously , we are in the hands of the Planning Inspectorate who deal with appeals and they will not be hurried and do not respond kindly to pressure from the District council 'to get a move on'

The matter is entirely out of the District council's hands  so all we can do is wait and Covid is not helping

Pressure from the MP MIGHT help but I suspect that like most MP's he will not touch this or get involved in any shape or form

FYI all

from Debbie Lorimer at SDC and I have queried why only 8 although apparently Touring van status may affect this

Dear Julian

Under the local member protocol I want to inform you that, as required by law, the Council will be applying the Council Tax legislation and charging the occupiers of the above encampment for Council Tax. As part of this process the Council will be informing the Valuation Office that there are 8 pitches on the site.

I want to stress that the Council Tax legislation is completely separate to the Panning legislation and us carrying out the Council’s obligation regarding Council Tax will have absolutely no implication or bearing on the outcome of the forthcoming planning appeal. To be clear, paying council tax and receiving a waste collection service in no way legitimises the occupation of the site for planning purposes.

The other outcome of recording the encampment on the council tax system for billing purposes is that it permits the depot to provide a waste service to the site and fulfils the Council’s duties in respect of protecting the local environment. The process of raising the Council Tax bills will begin this week which will then enable the depot to engage with the occupiers regarding the delivery of waste bins and then the ongoing collection of waste.

I wanted to let you know that this was happening in case you were asked questions when the bins arrive on the site and so that you can correct any misconceptions that might be raised. Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you have any queries in relation to this at all.

Kind regards

Debbie

Debbie Lorimer

Director of Resources

t 01508 533981 e dlorimer@s-norfolk.gov.uk

Drove past it yesterday - it looks permanent. Has the council granted retrospective planning permission? Shall we all just go ahead and build on land we own?

Yet another “ mobile home “ going onto this site this morning !! What is happening to stop this ?

South Norfolk Council has now received a start date from the Planning Inspectorate for the Planning Appeals Process.  The timetable is as below.

Timetable

Interested parties consultations out by 19th October for comments 16th November

Statements due by 16th November

Final comments on Statements by 7th December

To date no hearing date has been set but SNDC assume that it will be after 7th December 2020.

Point of Contact at SNDC

Andy Baines
Compliance Officer
t 01508 533840 email abaines@s-norfolk.gov.uk

The travellers have submitted 2 appeals.

One is against the Refusal and the other is against the Enforcement Notice. 

I do hope the Council performed the Enforcement correctly.

They are appealing against the breach saying it didn't happen.

They are stating that a breach of planning never occurred.

That at the time of the Enforcement notice was issued, it was too late.

The Enforcement notice wasn't properly served on everyone.

The steps to comply are excessive and lesser steps would overcome objections.

The notice was too short for them to comply.

Please send your comments to http://acp.planninginspectorate.gov.uk

Ref: APP/L2630/C/203250478

The Appeal is still in progress.

Thanks for bringing us up to speed with the progress, or lack of it. What a disgrace this situation has been made worse by the planning inspectorate taking so long.

See all there bins were out today , who pays for the bin collection I wonder ! 

how come they have been allowed to install street lighting on the site and have a tarmac entrance?